Let's Get Real - Is It YOU Hurting Your SEO?

MICHAEL:
Hi guys, Michael here. Do you want a second opinion on your SEO? Head to theseoshow.co and hit the link in the header. We'll take a look under the hood at your SEO, your competitors and your market and tell you how you can improve. All right, let's get into the show.

INTRO: It's time for the SEO show, where a couple of nerds talk search engine optimization so you can learn to compete in Google and grow your business online. Now, here's your hosts, Michael and Arthur.

MICHAEL: All right. We're back for another episode of the SEO show. We've been looking forward to this one. We have been, because last week we were trashing dodgy SEO sales tactics and dodgy agencies and all the unscrupulous stuff. But this week, after working in the game for the last decade, we're going to trash some of the stuff that clients do that contribute to SEO not working. So we thought it would be cool to put an episode together that explains the stuff that we see clients do a lot that hurts them. And they don't even know that they're hurting themselves. So our hope is that by sharing a few war stories and our battle scars, we'll be able to help people understand that, you know, in certain scenarios, you know, if you act one way, it can lead to this outcome. If you act another way, the outcome might be better. And we don't want to, we don't want you to think of it as trashing. No. That's just a quick and easy way of summing it up because like we said last time, a lot of this comes back to having the right expectations at the start and making sure that when you work with an agency on SEO, it makes sense. If that is done from the start, then there shouldn't be these problems that we're going to run through today, but they do occur from time to time. So let's run through them and have a little chat about them. And hopefully it helps you out when it comes to making your own decisions about working with SEO agencies. So getting into it. The first one that we see a little bit or quite a bit is often is expecting instant results or even results quicker than six months or so with your SEO campaign, right? Yeah. This speaking from our own agency's perspective, it's a waste.

ARTHUR: It's a waste of time for everyone. Yeah. It's a waste of your time.

MICHAEL: It's a waste of our time. And we try to avoid this as much as possible by being very clear about timelines and expectations and the like. And, you know, we, we specifically have slides in our, in our proposals that explain all of this. So people understand it, but be that as it may, sometimes people come in and they just sort of hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see.

ARTHUR: Although they'll claim to understand it, then you send them a report after the first month to say, Oh, look, I'm a little bit disappointed. I was expecting a bit more than this. Like we've explained to you, it's going to take upwards of three to six months to see results. Um, yeah. Yeah. It happens all too often.

MICHAEL: Yeah. So that is the thing that they'll sort of say, well, I really expected more to be done or better results by now. Or I would have thought that, you know, would be here by now, but like you really shouldn't have thought that because SEO is a long-term play and we told you that and you know, we made very clear what was going to happen. So you just need to go into an SEO campaign with your eyes open that takes time and you need to trust that the people you're working with have the tools and the skills to get the job done right. And if you do trust that, then trust that the timeframes are telling you are right as well. Definitely.

ARTHUR: The onus is on the SEO as well, to be able to kind of demonstrate the progress, the gradual progress over the months. So showing things like, you know, the work that he's been doing, things like, you know, organic visibility, going into Ahrefs and showing, you know, you might not see your traffic increasing at the moment, but look how many more keywords are starting to appear on page one, you know, positions one to three. Yeah. So kind of giving them peace of mind that way, I think is very important because three, three months is a short period of time when it comes to SEO. If they can see, you know, DR improving these things, improving gradually, there'll probably be a bit more. Yeah. What's the word I'm looking for? Comfortable.

MICHAEL: Yeah. That, that, you know, that the work is having an impact because you don't want to be investing money every month and absolutely nothing happens. So, Look, and it's not always the client's fault. You know, SEO might not be the right channel for them to begin with. And a good salesperson needs to take that into account and suggest the right channels and understand their goals and their timeframes and what motivates them and their budgets and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. But the general gist, don't expect SEO to work in one month or two months or three months.

ARTHUR: Exactly. Like we said, it's a, it's a waste of everyone's time. You know, we spend a lot of time onboarding a client. A lot of the work is up front, all the deliverables, the keyword research, mapping content, that takes a lot of our time. Yeah. So for a client to sign on and leave in two months, we don't, we don't make anything from it. It's just not good for anyone. No. So they get nothing out of it. We get nothing out of it. So exactly, exactly.

MICHAEL: So another thing we see a lot is that, you know, they engage, the client engages in SEO agency, but then restricts what they can do to the website and then complains that there's no result, which search engine optimization, you know, that last word optimization, it means you're optimizing your website so it can perform well in the search engines without the optimization. It's just a website that exists in Google the way it always has. So you need to let your agency do the work.

ARTHUR: there's like two camps when it comes to this. I find that those clients will give you free reign and say, you know, you're the expert, do what you think will help my site. And then there's the flip side of that where there's people where they'll critique every little recommendation that you put through them and say, Oh, I don't want this. I don't want this. There's also the middle people. I kind of, you know, they agree and they'll kind of listen to you, but yeah.

MICHAEL: Yeah. So look, a lot of clients look at their website. Well, let me rephrase this. No one looks at your website the way you do as a business owner. Exactly. Some business owners will like, let's say we want to put copy into a little read more toggle so that, you know, if you click read more, there's some SEO copy in there. No one's ever going to read that.

ARTHUR: No, ever. Unlikely. Very unlikely.

MICHAEL: SEO people, maybe you as a business owner.

ARTHUR: So sometimes, you know, people will kind of sit there for weeks just trying to perfect it. Whereas we're trying to explain to you, let's get the content on the site, you know, give Google the time to crawl it, index it. You'll start seeing results a lot sooner.

MICHAEL: But they're, you know. Yeah. You need to be a bit more objective as a, as an owner of a website and just say, look, yep. Get it on there. As long as it's, you know, good written and good.

ARTHUR: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. If they've keyword stuff and it reads like crap, then obviously no one wants that on their site.

MICHAEL: Yep.

ARTHUR: Um, the other thing is like, you know, sometimes they will refuse to share CMS logins or I can understand that a little bit, a lot more than, you know, refusing to do the work or recommendations that you put across. Some people are very, you know, pedantic about their site and don't want me to break it and take that site down.

MICHAEL: Sure. But. Things work best when you can move quickly and get the work done that you need to get done without having to sort of go back and have the client in the middle. Cause the client's always busy and you know, things will sit in their inbox for weeks when you could have just done it, you know, in a matter of minutes if you had the access. Yeah. The other thing on this point I think is being tight. Yes. Yeah. I was going to say that. You know, if you've engaged an agency and you're spending a couple of grand, a few grand a month or whatever on SEO and you're trying to get to some outcome, you know, leads, new customers that are going to grow your business, whatever percent or revenue, why then say, Oh, I'm not going to invest in proper hosting, or I'm not going to invest in that CDN because, you know, it's, it's eight bucks a month and we don't need to do that. You know, there's small costs that make a big difference. Especially hosting. Yeah. Hosting's a big one there. You know, you invest in it so you get the results. If you, if you don't sort of want to take that advice on it can hurt the results. So, you know, just those restrictions that sometimes business owners or people that run a website impose on an SEO agency, make it very tough to do the optimizing part of SEO.

ARTHUR: Yeah. I think this leads nicely into the next point. So are you being the bottleneck? So basically, you know, a lot of people that we have worked in within the past, you know, we wait weeks and weeks and weeks just for feedback for basic things such as metadata. You know, we spend a lot of time chasing them. It's a lot of wasted time on our side that could be better applied working on the site, working on the campaign, you know, link building, things like that. So you've got to ask, are you being the bottleneck? Yeah.

MICHAEL: And often this is a, this is a common thing, you know, again, as we said, business owners or managers, they can be busy and they expect you to, you, when I say you, I mean the SEO person, they expect them to chase them over and over. I am an SEO person. But this client, right, like instead of having their own time management or project management, they just say, well, you follow up with me until I get back to you. Oh, you know, and they expect you to chase and chase and chase the small things, you know, like adding content to a site or updating metadata stuff.

ARTHUR: Page titles, you know, sometimes you can be waiting a month to hear back. You know, that's a month. You basically put themselves back a month.

MICHAEL: Yeah. And the whole campaign. Yeah. What about like on this note being vague with your briefs and, and what you like and don't like?

ARTHUR: Yeah. We've got a little story that we wanted to touch on.

MICHAEL: Yeah. Well, I'll let you take the story away cause this is a, an experience you had, right?

ARTHUR: Yeah. So it's not exactly SEO related, it's website related, but it kind of applies to SEO and I guess to most marketing. But a couple of years ago, I can't even remember when it was, maybe 2018. Uh, we were going to build a website for one of our new clients.

MICHAEL: So just, just let me interrupt here. We don't build websites anymore because of stuff like this.

ARTHUR: Exactly. Yeah. Well, I don't build websites anymore. Well, we as a business just avoid them as much as possible. Um, But yeah, basically this guy came to us with no brief. He wanted a new site and he wanted a fresh site. Basically gave us free reign. So he said, I trust you guys. You guys are the experts. Just go, go and do what you want to do. So we sent him some wireframes and built out a site on staging, you know, gave us the green light, everything was going well. Got to the point where the site was at a stage for him to review. And he kind of turned around and said, Oh, you know, this is not what I'm after. So we're like, okay, well you never really told us what you wanted. What don't you like about it? So we got into like a loop of rather than him telling us what he liked, he was telling us what he didn't like. Uh, and it was just very difficult to kind of, you know, figure out what he, what was, what was going on inside his head. Um, Anyway, one day he turned around, basically he had a, he had a site, a reference site. It was a site from the UK, super complex. It was a beautiful site. A lot of parallax. So not just basic parallax, like an image behind or like text behind an image, but super, super complex. So when you scroll down, think of Apple, you scroll down and all the elements were kind of moving along and animations, animations. Yeah, it was, it was really impressive, but it was a pain in the ass to put together. We needed like, you know, went through three developers. A lot of them couldn't figure it out. Eventually we got there. I got to the point where, you know, we needed content for the site. So I gave him a call. He goes, I look, you know, it's a long weekend. I'm going to sit down, get through it all and send it to you on Tuesday. So comes Tuesday, I give him a call. He says to me, Oh, you know, I had a cracked open a beer on Friday and completely forgot about it. I was fuming.

MICHAEL: Because the agreement was like, he was providing the content for the site.

ARTHUR: That was always the agreement. So a bit of context, yeah. But this goes back to him initially saying, oh, you're going to have to chase me. You have to chase me. And we did chase him and I did chase him. It got to the point a couple of weeks after that, he called up and he was like, where's my site? I'm like, we're still waiting for you. And he started blowing up at me saying, this is unacceptable. I've got my marketing ready. I need to go live in two weeks. And I'm like, look, with all due respect, there's no chance we're going live in two weeks. We've been doing this for six months. I've been chasing you for six months. And no, it's going to take at least two months to have the site ready. No, no, no. I need it done by this date. I was going overseas as well at the time, if you remember. So it just didn't end up happening. So I guess the end result was, you know, he still hasn't got a new site. He wasted a lot of our time. We probably lost money on that project. It was unsatisfied. We were pissed off and not good for anyone. No. So it just comes down to, yeah, he was a massive bottleneck. A, by not having a brief, but more so, you know, relying us to chase him, you know, we're, we're a marketing agency, you know, we're not assistants. We're not, we're not there to chase you. You know, we want to help you reach your goals. We want to, you know, in this, this case, we want to help you build a nice website, but we're not going to be chasing you every day trying to get stuff out of you.

MICHAEL: Yeah. So I guess a good thing there is email comes in, reply to it, you know, in a business day, if you can.

ARTHUR: And you know, like you said before, people have lives, people get busy, you know, stuff gets missed. Like we miss stuff. We're human. Yeah. But you know, to rely on someone to constantly chase you is just unreasonable.

MICHAEL: Yeah. Unreasonable and disrespectful of their time. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I guess the, the thing is if you, if you get back to emails quickly and, and the other things, dribs and drabs, you know, sort of like, drip feeding information back or responses. You know, if you can try and be concise and comprehensive with the feedback that you do give that prevents bottlenecks from forming, you know, otherwise you might find situations where we're waiting back for something from the client. We go and make changes on the back of it, but then they drip feed some other information and then that means work has to be revived and that sort of stuff. So just, yeah, in addition to getting back promptly, just being very comprehensive with the way you get back to people.

ARTHUR: Yeah. And on a side note, I had a look at a site that still hasn't changed since 2018.

MICHAEL: So it hasn't gotten very far with that project. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. See, not a good experience for anyone. We're not in the business of running a half build websites, you know? No, absolutely not. We're not even in the business of building sites anymore for reasons like this. So look, another one that is a little bit of it, this is less common, but it does happen. a client will trust an agency enough to engage them. So like, you know, that's the first hurdle, but they don't trust them enough to work with them and, and sort of just accept what they're saying. So they might start throwing lines, you know, my friend's an SEO expert and he works here and he says that you should be doing this or You know, sort of like there's someone watching over your shoulder and it sort of leads to this environment where the client's essentially saying to the agency, I don't trust you. And I'm going to have someone critique your work that knows nothing about the strategy or what you're up to or the way you do things or why you're doing things. They're just sort of throwing in their feedback from the sidelines. Yeah, for sure. And that's not a good environment really.

ARTHUR: You know, SEO can be black and white, but it can also be very gray. And you know, everyone's got their opinions. Everyone has their strategies, you know, particularly of doing things. Um, and I want to give a shout out to Rob, our SEO specialist at local digital. Cause he's a speed demon Rob. He's dealt with some interesting clients over the years. Um, but in this particular example, he had, um, he was working on a client and there was an external third party that basically the whole time, um, just, looking over his work, critiquing everything. So he would send through a document or whatever, and then you'd hear back from this third person. Didn't even really know who he was. We don't know his experience. We don't know who he is. It was basically just calling out everything. So we had to look through everything that Rob did say was- Right, right, right.

MICHAEL: The feedback was garbage, by the way, that this external person was giving.

ARTHUR: So it was an uphill battle trying to get anything done because you had this third person basically saying, no, no, no, no, no. We're like, well, you get to the, sorry, you get to the point where, you know, you, you've spent this money to work with us. Obviously you've trusted us enough to spend that amount of money with us. Why do you have a third person that kind of looking over everything that we do? It's a, it's, I find it's a bit disrespectful, but B it's just causing a very unworkable environment. It's just very hostile because you're basically, you know, what's, what's the analogy? you know, like paddling up Creek or whatever, like you're basically fighting to get anything done. Yeah. And it's just a waste of time because you know,

MICHAEL: And look, I get it from a client's point of view. Like it's the old second opinion. Like if you go to a doctor and they say one thing and you're, you don't necessarily agree or whatever, you go get a second opinion, but you can have second opinions in your SEO world, but you don't need to have them sitting on every call and watching over the shoulder and giving feedback directly to the agency.

ARTHUR: Maybe you get this in this situation. It was horrible. It was horrible. It was every email, every call, they wanted weekly calls, which is something we're going to talk about later on. But it was just, it was just not workable basically. And needless to say, they're not a client anymore.

MICHAEL: And we say, we have had other, I guess, scenarios where someone that wanted to work with us would suggest things that this is not an SEO example, but a Google ads example. They would say, look, we were going to have you and one other agency in the account and one agency can run a couple of campaigns. You can run a couple and we'll see what works better. And we, the other agency was like, yeah, we'll do that. But we said, look, we're not going to do that. Those campaigns are going to be competing each other for similar keywords. It's all going to be a mess. It's not going to be a true indicator. If that's how you want to do things, it's probably best. You just work with that other agency and we're here in the future if it doesn't work out.

ARTHUR: I guess for us as well, we don't want to kind of show how we structure our campaigns and things like that. It's our, it's our IP basically. So giving access to our accounts to a different agency. Yeah.

MICHAEL: Well, that happens when it happens, but in that case it's just, it's not looking at it purely from the client's perspective. It's not a good outcome for them to have these campaigns competing with each other.

ARTHUR: It never works out. We've never, there's never been a situation where we've had, Or a situation similar to that where it's worked out well.

MICHAEL: Yeah. It can be very sort of hostile and adversarial. So funnily enough, in that case, when we said that the client said to the other agency, we're going to go with local digital because they, you know, they respected that we were truthful and we're happy to walk away. So, um, look, if you trust an agency enough to engage them, then give them enough time to get the work done without before you, I guess, start bringing in other people to critique it would be the point.

ARTHUR: Fair enough. If it's been three, four, five months and you don't see results, you can have, well, you can, you can do whatever you want, but I mean, that, that's more reasonable having someone have a look through the work at a later day. But when you're starting off having someone just critique every little thing, it's just not a good environment to be working in. Yep.

MICHAEL: So the other thing that is, uh, I guess a bug bear when, uh, clients come to an SEO agency is if they want, you know, reporting is good. We love reporting, but constant frequent reporting doesn't go hand in hand with SEO, which moves slower, especially weekly.

ARTHUR: We'll put reporting weekly calls. Yeah. Cause I can understand at the start of a campaign you're probably going to have a lot, a lot more communication with the client. You're going to be sending deliverables, you're going to be getting access to things. So there's a lot of, you know, back and forth, but you know, month two, month three you know, you're at that stage where you're just kind of, you know, doing link building and things like that. There's no need for a weekly call. It's a waste of everyone's time. There's no reason why someone can't pick up the phone if they have a question call. whenever they need to, but to have like a reoccurring weekly meeting. Structured meeting. Yeah. It's, it's a waste of time that exec or whatever SEO person can be basically, basically utilizing it better on their campaign.

MICHAEL: Yeah. Do you want their time spent on meetings that aren't achieving anything or do you want their time spent working on your campaign? Exactly. Improving your site. So I guess the only thing I would say to that point is, you know, if, if a client's running multiple channels and there's like an overarching strategy, then maybe weekly whips.

ARTHUR: Yeah. Weekly whips work in the right situation.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

ARTHUR: But just setting up a call for the sake of having a call just cause you want to talk to them. Yeah. Yeah. It's a waste of time. And like I said, that time's a lot better spent on the campaign, building links, you know, optimizing content, things like that. Stuff that's going to get them results. Exactly. Not regurgitating information that they can get themselves. Yeah. Especially, you know, we give clients a dashboard. So if they want to know how much traffic they got that week, they have the logins and they can have a look themselves. It's not, you don't need a call for that.

MICHAEL: Yeah. So I guess it also comes back to expectations and investment. Like if a client really wants WIPs, but they also really want results, then they need to be investing enough to be covering the time for the WIPs and covering the time for the results. So horses for courses, but as a general rule, you don't need that level of granular frequent reporting for the SEO. No way. So another big one is stopping too soon, right? Like SEO, you could be investing in it. And if you pause after a couple of months worth of work, you've effectively, you're not going to benefit from that work as much as if you'd kept going with the investment. So a bit of an analogy that I like to use on this. Well, I don't like to use it. I just heard it the other day from Dom at work and I thought it would work well here, but in the book, Think and Grow Rich, there's a story about a miner, like a gold digger who bought all this equipment and is digging a hole, trying to get down to this rich vein of gold. And he doesn't quite make it there. So he decides to give up, you know, he's saying, I'm not going to keep investing in this and doing all this work. So he sells off all his machinery to some other dude who does the research and sees that the gold is only three feet further down. So then he jumps into that hole that's already been dug and digs and gets to the gold. So the moral of this story or the point I'm trying to make here is you don't want to be digging this massive hole and being so close to that gold and then just say, ICO doesn't work, so I'm going to stop and basically lose all of that investment you've made all the time or the effort or the expense. Exactly. Yeah. That comes back to the SEO should be communicating the work that's being done.

ARTHUR: They should be communicating the promising wins and you know, the gradual progress that increases the improvements and rankings and visibility and things like that.

MICHAEL: Yeah. And giving you the confidence that your investment is having an impact. And if you keep at it, you are going to get to that rich vein of gold. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, cool. Um, a big one, a real big one is when clients just change things on a website or not even change things on a website. They just change things, but don't say indicate it.

ARTHUR: Yeah. Oh, it's the most frustrating thing ever.

MICHAEL: Yeah. Because Again, SEO optimization. We are doing work to a website. If you then come along and copy over that, like, like paste new content, change the content, get rid of all the internal linking we've been doing. Absolutely. Yeah. Update plugins and break the site without saying anything. Frustrating one.

ARTHUR: Yeah. Updating plugins. Well, no, like going back to what you said, like as frequently as we do look at clients' websites, you know, we're not on there like observing every page, deep page. So clients can go in there and start changing things up. And that's happened in the past. And we'll see that, you know, traffic and rankings to a specific page will drop, have a look. And we investigate and we find they've completely rewritten the content or removed something. or even removed a page in some instances without saying anything. That used to get a ton of traffic. Absolutely. Yeah. So that, and it's just super frustrating because all it takes is just a quick email saying, Hey, look, I want to do this. Is that okay? Communication. Absolutely.

MICHAEL: Yeah. You know, the, your agency is your, ideally should be your partner. They're an extension of your team. They're there to look after your SEO. So keep them in the loop.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

MICHAEL: Because another one that happens all the time is a client would just build a new website and launch it and then tell you after they tell you afterwards, Oh, by the way, it doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened.

ARTHUR: Yeah.

MICHAEL: It happens more than it should. Like it doesn't make sense that you would have an agency working on your SEO and that you just launch a site, but it does happen. And look, that means that your traffic rankings can tank in a lot of times. It will tank if you haven't done a proper migration. Yep. Um, so this just comes back to communicating things, asking the question, you know, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think? Quick and easy. And it can often save a lot of heartache and cold, hard cash being lost by the business that sort of made the changes.

ARTHUR: Yeah. And you also touched on the plugins and updating things that that's really frustrating because you know, if you're going in there, if you don't know what you're doing, you can break your site and you will probably break your site. If you're doing a big WordPress update, chances are it's going to break the site. then what happens is, you know, the client will call up frantically saying, Oh look, my site's broken. I need help. I need help. I need help. Fair enough. We'll do what we can to help. But again, you really should be letting us know or asking someone who knows what they're doing to be doing those sorts of updates. Yep. And you should have a backup of your site every time.

MICHAEL: Daily backups, staging server. You shouldn't be changing things in a live environment. Never. You should change it. on the staging side. You can do little things like metadata tweaks or content things, but if you're going to be doing big changes and updates, plugins, updating themes, doing any sort of like custom development to a site, you know, like, Hey, I want this awesome form embedded in this page. Do it all on staging. Make sure it looks good. Push it to live. And you should be investing in a hosting environment that allows you to do that. That comes back to the point we made earlier about being tight when you really don't need or shouldn't be tight. For sure. Um, the other thing that we see a bit is, and it sort of ties into, you know, the first point we made about being unrealistic with expectations of time. The other one is being unrealistic with expectations when Google makes changes because Google make changes a lot. Yeah. Broadcore updates happen. The search engine result pages can be in a state of flux and chaos. And you know, a client that was previously ranking well and getting traffic might see a dip in that and they want to fix it instantly. The problem with that is that Google are deliberately vague with these broad algorithm updates about what's changing. So turning to your SEO agency and saying, well, what's happened? Fix it. You should know. Yeah. Is I guess it's counterproductive because for sure a good SEO agency wouldn't know yet.

ARTHUR: Like they need a bit of time to figure out what has happened. Exactly. So you're not going to figure out on the day of an update. Yeah. It can take weeks, months sometimes to know what the update was targeting. And a lot of the time you might see a drop and then a couple of weeks later, you might see that keyword pop right back up.

MICHAEL: Exactly. Like if you, if you react too quickly to a big change in the Google algorithm. Do a lot more harm than good. Exactly. Exactly. So you need to be cool with the fact that SEO, it's like growing a business. It doesn't just grow in a linear, perfectly diagonal up into the right. It sort of ebbs and flows and that will happen with your SEO. Google will change things often. Sometimes you do really well out of that. Other times you do poorly. If you do do poorly, it's good to just take a breath, take a step back, let the dust settle a bit and don't go too wild with your changes. Try and be a bit, I guess, remove emotion from it and be methodical and allow the time that it takes to make an informed decision once there's time to have a look at things.

ARTHUR: And we've seen this happen in the past so many times.

MICHAEL: Yeah. We've, we've had clients like the minute that happens, we'd say, listen, you just need to wait a bit, let the dust settle. And they say, well, that's not good enough. Then they leave.

ARTHUR: Yeah. And they're impatient. And then a couple of months later they're back into position one without having changed.

MICHAEL: Yeah. So anyway I think that was pretty, you know, we, we spent some time putting our head together thinking about this sort of stuff. These are the main common things that from the client side will hurt SEO campaigns.

ARTHUR: Yeah.

MICHAEL: stuff that we deal with on a day to day. Yeah. And it's not, we're not trying to trash clients or ex-clients or anything like this. It's just, we see the same things happen over and over again. And it's not, you know, we did that last episode about bad agencies. It's not always the agency's fault. Sometimes it is the client's fault. So look, hopefully that helps in regards to, I guess, working with an agency. That is episode 10 in the books. Pretty good. We are going to be back next week with another episode of the SEO show. I hope you enjoyed this one. It was very exciting. I enjoyed this one. This is my favorite one. I tell you what, we got to drop Rob's name in there, not just once, but twice now. Yeah. Good as well. So we'll drop his name more frequently, I think. Yeah. We know he's our number one fan. Give him some more shout outs. But look, we hope you enjoyed it and we will see you next week with another episode of the SEO Show. So have a good one. Bye.

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