SEO Pros: Gaston Riera @ Envato Elements

MICHAEL:
Hi guys, Michael here. Do you want a second opinion on your SEO? Head to theseoshow.co and hit the link in the header. We'll take a look under the hood at your SEO, your competitors and your market and tell you how you can improve. All right, let's get into the show.

INTRO: It's time for The SEO Show, where a couple of nerds talk search engine optimization so you can learn to compete in Google and grow your business online. Now here's your hosts, Michael and Arthur.

MICHAEL: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the SEO Show. It's Michael Costin here. And this week, we're doing something a little different with the show. You know, we've had a few guests on now. A lot of them might have been names that you've heard of in the SEO world, which is awesome. We're going to keep doing that. But what I wanted to also do is bring in people that may not be as well known in the SEO world. So I'm talking people that work in SEO every day, but aren't necessarily going on podcasts or publishing or, you know, having that personal brand, so to speak. So I've gone out and found a whole bunch of in-house SEO specialists and interesting people in the SEO world. And I've invited them on the show to talk about what it's like working in SEO. What's their days like? How do they learn? How do they go about things? How did they get into SEO? all of that sort of stuff. So the first person that I brought on the show is Gaston Riera. So Gaston Riera is a SEO specialist at Envato. Envato is an Australian success story really as a company. It is a marketplace or a whole lot, a lot of different marketplaces really, where you can go on and download WordPress themes or assets for creative, you know, design or stock photos or Motion graphics that sort of stuff. They have a whole bunch of different brands very big company Very well known across the internet a lot of organic traffic from Google. That's where Gaston comes in He works in the Envato elements team. That's a site that has over 30 million pages So it's very big enterprise level SEO technical SEO and it was great to chat to Gaston about his experience you know how he found SEO and then what day-to-day looks like working at Envato and So, that's my long-winded intro over. Let's jump over to our chat with Gaston Riera, SEO specialist at Envato. Hi Gaston, welcome to the SEO show. For people who may not have heard of you before, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

GASTON: Yeah. Hey, Michael. Thanks for inviting me. So as you said, I'm Gaston, Gaston Riera. Or if you want to pronounce it in Spanish, it would be like Gaston Riera. But anyways, I'm a Senior SEO Specialist. I'm currently working for Envato. Envato is one of the biggest brands that we have in Australia. They have like ThemeForest, the marketplace for WordPress themes. Envato Elements, Dutch Blast, and many other pretty good products. Yeah, I specialize in technical SEO. I have backgrounds in electronics engineering. So I'm like a weird nerd that likes math and also likes marketing and SEO. So yeah.

MICHAEL: Perfect combo for us. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So Envato, we'll get to that in a minute because that's a pretty, you know, I use a lot of those products every day, but I guess you personally, when it comes to SEO, you know, you said you got that background there in engineering, but how did you discover SEO? How did you find the world of SEO?

GASTON: Well, what happened is that, so I'm Argentinian, I'm living in Australia right now. I don't know if I said it earlier. So, I've been in Australia for three years. Before that, I was in Argentina, but I was studying in uni, let's say like 10 years ago. A really big economic crisis hit Argentina and I needed to make money by whatever means that I had. So I was a uni student and I had a lot of free time in my hand and I was spending pretty much all of that time in social media. And I said, if I'm doing whatever on internet, there should be a way that I can make money off of internet. And I ended up googling a lot. And I ended up finding a forum where you can build web pages and you can sell links. That's it. Spoiler alert, please don't buy links. That's a separate discussion. So I ended up finding this forum where you can build websites and then offer your website to to put links, guest posting, and all that. At some point, many people were asking me to put their links on my website, and I didn't know why. And people generously explained to me that if you put links on a website, you favor that website to rank better on Google. And then I said, well, why? Why do you want to rank better on Google? If you rank better, you'll get more traffic. If you get more traffic, you'll pay more in advertising. And because I was deep into my studies of electronics engineering, I wanted to learn about the algorithms. And it's everything's just, it's just coding. And I said, Okay, Google is a machine. If I'm studying engineering, I should be able to crack this thing. That was such a fool I was trying to understand how Google works. But yeah, I got kind of obsessed and trying to reverse engineer Google. And then I got very deep into that. My family was very annoyed with me because I missed a couple of classes. I failed a couple of classes too. Because I was… Yeah, I was… But man, I was making money. I was making money trying to understand how it worked and all that. So yeah, that was just a one-way trip. I ended up having a really big PVN. hundreds of sites selling links. I don't, I'm not proud of that. But that's what happened. That's part of my story. Yeah. Then I ended up having, yeah, then I ended up having clients funding my entity. I got lucky that I was recruited by the largest ecommerce site in Latin America. So yeah, that's, that's, that's a really brief story of how I got into SEO.

MICHAEL: Yeah, cool. So I like that it appealed to your engineering mind. That's sort of the way that a lot of people get into SEO, like they discover it. And then once you maybe get a few wins, you see some rankings improve, really you catch the bug, don't you? And then you just want to keep doing it and getting better. And it sounds like you went from that into starting your own agency. Was that how you first got, I guess, a job in SEO? Was that the first place?

GASTON: Well, technically, no, because I had, well, I had clients. And if you are a freelance consultant, that would be like your job. Even though if you really like what you're doing, you can say that you're not working, whatever. But yeah, I had clients for like two years before founding an agency, getting that whole structure. But my first real job with a paycheck, with a monthly paycheck was in this e-commerce site. It's called Mercado Libre. It's literally the largest e-commerce site in Latin America. They operate in 20 countries. They had at that point in 2017, like a billion with a B, a billion sessions per month. That was crazy big. So yeah, one thing that, sorry, going back to the previous thing, how I learned this year, one thing that really hit me and I really like this. With SEO, at least at the beginning, you can build your own websites and you can try everything and you can break stuff. That's the thing that I like the most. I can't tell you how many times I broke websites, WordPress, getting deep into the PHP code, trying to change things. Just, oh,

MICHAEL: I say you're not really doing SEO unless you break a website or if you got to get a penalty, excuse me, you got to get a penalty like a manual penalty or algorithmic because that means you're actually doing things and testing and pushing the limits, right?

GASTON: Oh freaking Penguin, man.

MICHAEL: Oh yeah. Overnight it was like, you know, SEO was one way and then Penguin came along and then the rules changed overnight. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great backstory. I guess, you know, at a certain point you came over to Australia and you got your job at Envato. So obviously Envato, you know, they have a lot of big brands and I imagine a lot of traffic. Can you maybe tell us a bit more about what your day-to-day is working in SEO for a business like that?

GASTON: Yeah, sure. So the way that I like to describe this type of growth with this type of product is that regardless of the brand or the company that you're working for, when you have a highly templated site, e-commerce, pretty much every e-commerce on the earth right now is a highly templated site. We have maybe hundreds, thousands of millions, hundred million pages that are roughly the same. It's just a template that changes the content inside. The beauty of that is that you can, with a small sample of those pages, you can understand the big impact of whatever is happening in the site. You can extrapolate. So that's what I do on a regular basis. Try to capture a small section of the site. And currently I'm working on Envato Elements. Envato Elements has several dozens of million pages. Let's say more than 30, 40 million pages. And it operates with 15 different item types. Let's say categories. Because those categories are very different from one to each other, Google has a different assessment. Let's put it that way. Everyone assesses them for each category. That could be, literally, it could be different websites because of how they rank or how Google assesses them. So what I would do is just pick one category. I would start with the one that is performing the best so I can say, hey, if this is performing really well and I get to improve 1% traffic here, I could improve X% in revenue. So picking a small sample of that, crawling the hell out of it, Screaming Frog for life. If Screaming Frog was a public company, I would invest all my savings in that. Yeah, it's a great tool. So crawling the hell out of it, trying to understand the patterns of it. and talking to every product team that we have in the company, trying to see what they are planning on releasing, why they are releasing that, if that could have any impact on the SEO. Because actually, before recording this podcast, I was talking with an engineer manager, and I was telling him, hey, the problem with SEO is that everything impacts SEO. Every little thing that you put in the website can impact SEO. And they have to let us know. We have to be involved in pretty much every conversation. That sucks in a way because you spend most of your day in meetings. But that's also really good because you can have a really, really big impact sometimes.

MICHAEL: Yeah, also. And so with your work that you're doing, you will I guess, are you focusing on on-site mainly and, you know, templates and content and maybe working there or are you working across the full range, you know, from on-site to technical to link building?

GASTON: Are you across all of that? Well, yes and no. We do work, so in my world, in my view, not in my world, in my view, we have three pillars in SEO. We have the on-site, technical and off-site. Yeah, someone will come and say, well, onsite and technical are roughly the same. Let's work with a website that has 100 million pages and we can have a discussion on that. So yeah, onsite, technical, and offsite. I'm mostly focused on the technical and onsite type of things. But we are actually working on the offsite things. I am across that team, but I'm not managing them or

MICHAEL: Focus on that, yeah. Okay, cool. And so in regards to some of the on-site, you mentioned you might do a little test on a small sample size and see if it works and then roll that out across the site. Do you have any examples of stuff that you've done that has sort of had a good impact or the types of things that you're doing?

GASTON: Yeah. So the way that we are approaching this is trying to do the highly, not highly, just the mathematical approach to an A-B test. We know that the traditional A-B test in SEO doesn't work. You cannot just separate the traffic to a single URL. But what we did is because we have a very large website, we can take, let's say, 1,000 URLs and get all the traffic with 1,000 URLs and put it into a little script that we wrote. And we would compare the traffic and all the URLs that get into the median, the Gauss field, you know, the median standard. We will pick those and then separate it into two groups. And we will release the change to one group and then use it. control group. So that's the approach we are taking. We usually have like 50 URLs, 50 to 70 URLs in the test group and 50 to 70 URLs in the control group. One of the changes that we tried, for example, because we There are theories about having exactly the same title and h1 on the page and that that would work. There are other theories that said you should have different title and h1. Of course, it would always be different because in the title you would have the brand and things like that. What we did, one of the experiments that we did, that we ran like two years ago, was just making the title and the h1 exactly the same. The title would have the brand, of course, but it would be exactly the same. And they performed really well. The problem with that is when the website scales a lot, you would find that there are pages particularly with search pages, you will have search terms that are very similar to a category or to a search term. And then you have a whole other problem that is just canonicalizing the hell out of that or reusing the canonicalization of that. That would deserve like three hours, a three hour podcast.

MICHAEL: Cause yeah. I don't know if you remember back in the day, eBay, when they had, they got a big penalty because they had a lot of what were essentially doorway pages where they indexed search results and it would be, you know, like brown shoes size 11, brown shoes size 12, brown shoes size 13. They were a client of our agency back in the day and we had to go and manually categorize pages, like they built software and we had to categorize whether it was sort of relevant and should exist or not. And we're talking millions of pages and it was a nightmare from an SEO sense trying to get that site recovered from the penalty back in the day. So yeah, big considerations when you're working with a site the size of, you know, Envato Elements, for example, with what you said, 30 million odd pages. I imagine the Screaming Frog Crawl probably takes quite a long time on that.

GASTON: Oh, yeah. That's one thing that I… that I usually discuss with other SEO friends. It's like, do you actually, because how much value is it there if you crawl a 30 million pages website? Because, yeah, let's say you have a computer that can do that, or you do it in the cloud, whatever, but it's just so much data that it's hard to actually understand. I believe that the value on this type of thing is just, again, try to get a sample of the website and try to estimate from that. Maybe not crawling 30 million, but maybe crawling, I don't know, 50,000 pages, and you can guess an idea. Because again, it's all template. What's the value of crawling a million pages to see all the titles? Once you crawl a couple of thousand, you can figure out the template and that's it. The other 900,000 will be the same.

MICHAEL: Yeah, makes sense. And yeah, I wouldn't like to be trying to slice and dice a 30 million listing Excel file, for example. So yeah, look, I guess you've got good experience here working in an agency first, and then you've worked client side. I imagine there are pros and cons of each and things that you like about each. So, with you working client-side every day, what are some of the pros, things that you really love about it, but then maybe some of the challenges that you might be having in your day-to-day as an SEO?

GASTON: So, the thing that I like the most about working in an e-house, working just for one product, is that you have the context all the time about that product. And you can get deeper and deeper. every day with that product, then you can crack more complex solutions or more complex issues. Because what I found when you are working in an agency is that you have just a limited amount of time for each product, for each client. And you have to context switch every time you have a different client or you have a new client, things like that. And it's hard to keep track if you're working with a very large client. sorry, with a very large product, it's hard to come up with very complex solutions. Because you don't have the time. That's it. But also, that very same thing is it's also a con. Because It's so tiring sometimes. And there is so much bureaucracy in most of the companies, these large companies. So you have to convince three different teams to change the title sometimes. Or if you need to, I don't know, if you need to, what happened in my previous company, we had to update We had to add a couple of links. It was not a couple of links. It was like three links on each page on a section that had like three million pages. So it was like 10 million links. But because we were adding links on the storefront, the UX people said, well, we don't like those links. Okay, why do you don't like them? Well, because if you add links there, people will end up clicking those links and going somewhere else. Yeah, that's why we want those links. Then the product people say, well, we don't like those links. Why do you not like those links? Because those links are in the place where there should be a call to action for a different thing. So just adding three links for us would improve that. We wanted to improve crawlability, we wanted to improve discoverability, many other things. that we thought was going to bring like 1% more traffic, many millions of dollars. Other teams were just saying, well, no, we don't want it because wah, wah. They were complaining because they could. Some of their complaints and their concerns were valid, but it took us like six months to convince 10 different teams that we needed to do that. And sometimes, in this case, it was a big project, but sometimes if you wanted to test and iterate something, that bureaucracy kills the experiment. Because if it takes too long, it's like, why would you do it? But yeah.

MICHAEL: Yeah. So in a way, it sounds like you can't just be an SEO, you sort of have to be a salesperson and like an internal manager to try and get things across the line, which, yeah.

GASTON: Oh, yeah. And one of the many discussions that I have with my SEO friends in Argentina is that where the SEO team should sit. Should it sit in the product team? Should it sit in the marketing team? Should it sit in the engineering team? Should it sit by its own entity, just be this holy team that oversees everything? We don't know. The only answer that we got is like, yes, yes to everything. SEO has to be in the engineering team, has to be in marketing, it has to be in product, it has to be alone by itself. It has to be involved in pretty much anything. and everything. So yeah, it's just, yeah. I am of the opinion right now that if you're working in a large product as an in-house, the SEO function becomes more of a product manager function. But yeah, sorry, I digress very easily.

MICHAEL: No, no, that's really interesting. I sort of can see how Really across all of those functions SEO needs to be Front and center, you know in people's minds people need to be educated in SEO a product manager needs to be Engineer needs to be so that they're giving thought to that You know what we do here has an impact over there for arguments sake and if it's all siloed That's not going to happen. So it's almost like everyone needs to be an SEO, you know Yeah, and the educational piece and

GASTON: talking to everyone in the company that you're doing SEO, that there is a team that does SEO is very, very important because you will find people that read a book or that read a blog post or that they did SEO five years ago. And because they did five years ago, they say, well, I know SEO. I used to be an expert. So my opinion matters more than you that you were hired as an SEO. And yeah, that sucks. That's one thing. And the other thing is that if you're not telling everyone that SEO exists, that they should be looking after things that happen in the SEO side of things that could impact the Google, you may end up, this is something that happened six months ago, you may end up with your homepage not indexed for a week. Wow. Yes. And believe me, that is stressful.

MICHAEL: So did you, um, did you lose much from that and did it take a long time to recover or did it rebounce pretty quickly?

GASTON: It, uh, it took us a week to find that. And it was, yeah, it was, it was very bad. Um, we were lucky cause the way that Envato is set up is that you have, um, you have Envato elements. It's, it's, it's a subdomain. And also you have the main domain with the blog and things like that. And the pricing page is on a separate section, so the homepage was not indexed. It was only the homepage that was indexed. So Google ended up showing all the pages. They ended up showing the main page, the institutional page, then the pricing page. It was like switching with other good pages. Technically, we didn't lose traffic. We didn't lose revenue. However, how bad it is. if you're an SEO, that your homepage is not indexed. Nice.

MICHAEL: Yeah, so embarrassing. And was that something that sort of happened like, I guess, externally, like, you know, a developer or something made a change or something?

GASTON: Yeah, no, they were updating the internal APIs that manages the metadata. It was a good work, but they didn't know that that would impact the robots not indexed. Yes. They didn't let us know that that was happening. And we didn't check, of course, because we never knew. You cannot be on top of every single page. But yeah, that way we learned a really valuable lesson that we have to set up a monitor to at least 10 or 100 pages that we value the most. Yeah. Tracking canonicals, robots.txt, HTTP headers, pretty much everything.

MICHAEL: How are you doing that? Is that something you've built internally like a crawler or are you using a tool for that?

GASTON: We started with a third-party tool because we needed something quick and then we ended up writing a script for that. Yeah, that checks. We check everything that is, in a way, owned by the SEO team. And we are responsible for that. So, of course, the canonical title meta descriptions, the HTTP headers, if something changes there, because in the HTTP header, you can add canonicals, you can add noindexes, hreflang, whatever. So if things change there, if the schema markup changes, because sometimes they just get removed, or there's a new URL or things like that. If the images don't load and all that, we have a check, a daily check. It's automated, and we have an automated email that tells us, hey, out of these 100 URLs that you are tracking, these five are having an error on this thing. Go check it out.

MICHAEL: Very cool. Love it. We've built pretty much the exact same thing in our agency and then it fires alerts into Slack. So we know. And then it also takes snapshots of the website and like the code. And then when we log into our dashboard, it will highlight in green or red the stuff that's changed as well. So I guess there's something that you could probably add to it if you're looking for more work.

GASTON: That's fantastic. I love that. But in our case, we didn't do that because of time.

MICHAEL: Yeah, of course. Of course.

GASTON: Yeah. Yeah.

MICHAEL: Well, you touched on education there, which obviously is a big thing, not just for educating like other people in your organization, but I guess for you as an individual, you know, as an SEO, as someone working in-house with SEO constantly evolving, you've got to constantly be educating yourself. Where do you like to go to learn and I guess grow your skills in SEO at the moment? Is there any people you follow, sites you… read podcasts that you listen to, that sort of stuff?

GASTON: Look, I have a hot take on this. I believe that 99% of the content that is put out there regarding SEO is not useful content. Why is that? Because everyone has their own agenda. Every single article that everyone writes, they are trying to sell you their business. They're trying to sell you something. And if you have that, and that makes sense. That makes sense for them. And I did that. If I was in the situation, I would do that. I would do the same. So because of that, it's really hard to have one blog, one website that you can actually follow and see all that. The same happens with podcasts. Most podcasts try to, they try to sell you whatever they are selling or they try to collect sponsors. That's why I like your take of targeting the podcast because we, let's talk about SEO. Let's talk about how you do things instead of just talking about the huge success that you had three years ago. No, that doesn't work for me. Sorry, rant over.

MICHAEL: Okay.

GASTON: I agree to an extent. What do I do to keep up to date? I have three newsletters that I have. One is the SEO MBA, the formal newsletter by Aleida. Aleida, the queen of SEO. I love her. And then there's another one that I don't remember the name. So I usually get those newsletters on Sunday evenings in Australia or Monday mornings. And that's fantastic because you start the week with a quick curation of things that are happening. I follow a bunch of people on Twitter because Twitter is where everything happens in SEO. And yeah, outside of that, having a good network of people where you can bounce off ideas is the best thing that could happen. I was lucky enough to have a good network of people in Argentina that I still am in contact with. We have a WhatsApp group where we just talk about SEO and we rant about things. The same, I have a really small group of people that I catch up regularly here in Australia. And yeah, they actually, they run the Malvern SEO Meetup in Malvern. Yeah, Nick, Peter, two Peters actually. They are just fantastic, extremely talented people. The good thing about having a close network of people is that you can you can trust them and you can, if you trust them, I like when I have trusting people, you can just say numbers and say the clients that you're working with. So because if you are always saying, oh, I have a client that has many million pages and they have, no, it's just, it's hard to actually have a feedback from them. But if you say, well, I have a client B, this client has 80 million pages, they have 7% CTR, things like that, you can start to dissect the issue. And then you can bounce ideas with them saying, hey, I've tried this, it didn't work. But I'm thinking of doing this. How do you think about this? That's the best that you could have. That's how you learn the most. And then experimenting, just trying things. Don't be afraid to fail. We all are afraid to fail, of course, but that's life. I am of the opinion that no one knows SEO. The only way to know SEO is just to experiment. Because we don't know the actual impact of SEO, it's all bets. We know that certain recipes work, but they worked in the past. But when we were implementing those recipes, we didn't know if they would work. Because they work, now we say that those are good recipes. But yeah, so yeah, test the hell out of everything.

MICHAEL: Every site's different, isn't it? Like every site's a blank canvas and what worked on one may not work on the next. That's why I personally find SEO so fun and engaging and a challenge because there's so many different ways of doing things and you can be creative but you can also be analytical and you really just have to get your hands dirty a lot of the time and try things.

GASTON: Yeah, 100%.

MICHAEL: And do you do much by way of like with websites, you know, on the side, away from your day job, are you building sites, affiliate sites, you know, trying to test things out in that sense or is it… I used to, yeah.

GASTON: I got to be honest, I stopped doing that when I moved to Australia because it takes a lot of time. Uh, it's really fun and you can learn a lot, but moving to a new country is just, it takes a little time too. It takes a lot of effort. Uh, for me it was moving to a new country, new language, new culture, new everything. So I decided to stop playing with that for a bit and then build my life and then move back to back.

MICHAEL: Well look, it's been really awesome talking to you Gaston. I think that's been a really good introduction to yourself and how you approach SEO. But what I'd like to do is, everyone that comes on this show, I ask the same three questions at the end. So they're the same every time and it's really cool to see the different way people talk about things, think about things. So the first one is… What would you say is the most underrated thing or tactic in SEO? Internal linking. Hands down. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Pretty much I think that's my answer too. But what do you think the biggest myth in SEO is?

GASTON: Oh, I already did one hot take today. Should I go for a second one? Go for a second, why not? SEO tools report. Yep. Yeah, that well, it's, it's, it's, it's not a myth, but it's, it's very, very, people use it wrong, wrongly. It's like, they take that whatever the SEO tool is giving you as a report, they think that's the Bible, and they have to do that, and that's not. That's bad.

MICHAEL: Yeah. We've had lots of clients over the years when they put Yoast in and it has a little green, you know, the traffic lights and they go, I'm all green. My SEO is done. I'm ready, you know, ready for all my traffic.

GASTON: Oh, Yoast, man. That's a fantastic tool, but it costs so much harm. So much harm.

MICHAEL: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It actually used to be like really good, it was my go-to, and then they sort of dropped the ball a little bit when, you know, when they started indexing, ah sorry, images were sort of their own pages that would be crawled and ranked and yeah, anyway, we won't sit here and trash Yoast, but I do agree there is a temptation there just to take what these tools say is gospel and not really think about things and test things and try things. But on that note, my next question is about tools. Yeah. You know, every SEO loves to use tools to get the job done. You've already mentioned Screaming Frog before, but I guess in your world, if you had to pick three tools to get the job done, what would be your go-to arsenal?

GASTON: Okay, so number one, Screaming Frog, obviously. But I had to make a few comments on this. I'm working on very large websites, very large, more than 10, 20, 30, 50, sometimes 100 million pages. Because of that, Screaming Frog doesn't just simply run on your local machine. So I would say Screaming Frog, but on a cloud server, AWS, whatever you wanna do, that works fantastic. It's the best you can do. Then I would do, I would say, uh sql or something some query querying language to query the log server file whatever log server file that you can have depending on your server configuration things like that and then spreadsheets Plain and simple. Again, these are things that I do because I work on large websites. And connecting an AirDrive or SEMrush, or I don't know, even Spotify or Deepcrawl, these tools to these very large websites. One, it's stupidly expensive. stupid expensive, talking hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. And two, they often flag errors that shouldn't be errors or flag things that are okay, that are not okay, because they don't know. They don't know all the problems that are in this massive platform. And you can, if you know that there's a problem with the canonical and it's going to be fixing two sprints, You cannot tell AFR saying, hey, don't flag me this. You have to go through pages and pages and pages and say, no, you have a canonical fraud. Yeah, I know. Shut up.

MICHAEL: Yeah. And now with AFR, it's like the amount of credits that you have to use. I don't know if you've seen the pricing changes.

GASTON: Oh, yeah. But hey, it's not my goal to throw shit against these tools. They are fantastic tools. I use them. regularly, I don't want to say daily, but I use them at least once a week, because they have really good information. But it's information that you have to handpick how to know what you're looking for, and what you want to do. Personally, I use them a lot to do competitive analysis. Because that's that's the best way to do it quickly and at scale. Yeah, but yeah.

MICHAEL: Yeah, well look, it's been really great chatting with you this afternoon, Gaston. Thank you. I guess if you mentioned Twitter before, if people want to connect with you after this, would that be the best place for them to go to say hello?

GASTON: Yes, 100%. Twitter or LinkedIn. I do have a Facebook, not Facebook, I do have an Instagram page that's just Actually, because I'm in Australia and most of my friends and family is in Argentina, I use my Instagram page as a way to send them, to tell them that I'm alive. So I post once a week, I post a story once a week, I post an actual post once a month saying, hey, I'm doing this. I'm alive.

MICHAEL: I like it. I like it. And then that, that way it's sort of in lieu of a phone call. If you, if the time zone is not working for you that day.

GASTON: Oh yeah. No, the time zones with Argentina are horrible. It's like right now it's like 12 hours of difference. It's just horrible. Um, but yeah, um, in Twitter, um, in LinkedIn, you can find me with my name and my last name Gaston Riera all together. Yeah.

MICHAEL: Awesome. Well, it's been great chatting with you, mate. Thanks for coming on the show and have a great afternoon.

GASTON: Thanks for everybody. See you.

MICHAEL: Thank you.

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